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IM Landscape Growth Podcast

Date: February 18, 2024

“I love creating outdoor spaces. I love making people happy. And then the other flip to that is I combine that with the fact that I might have thought I was a good player in some sports, but I think I’m an even better coach.” – Ed Hansen

TLDL 😉

Ed Hansen, co-founder of Ext and a seasoned landscaping veteran, shares his journey from starting a lawn care service to becoming a tech innovator, along with insights on leadership and the evolution of the industry.

Here’s what we discuss in today’s episode:

• Ed Hansen’s introduction and his significant contributions to the landscaping industry over the years.
• A look at Ed’s career journey, the changes in marketing strategies over the past two decades, and the industry’s evolution.
• Insights into the growth of his business, Hanson Lawn and Gardens, and the ongoing importance of improving craftsmanship.
• Discussion on overcoming personal and leadership challenges, emphasizing the importance of feedback.
• How Ed transformed his leadership style to foster a supportive, growth-oriented company culture.
• The development of Ext, addressing communication and operational challenges through innovative software.
• The role of mentorship in personal and professional growth, with resources that have significantly influenced Ed’s career.

Actionable Key Takeaways:

Embrace Continuous Learning:

Always seek to learn and adapt to changes in the industry and technology.

Foster a Feedback-Rich Environment:

Encourage open communication for feedback within your team to facilitate growth and improvement.

Invest in Your Team:

Provide training and support to enhance your team’s skills and performance.

Utilize Technology for Efficiency:

Implement technological solutions like Ext to optimize operations and improve customer communication.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

1. Landscape Ontario: An association for landscape professionals.
2. EXT Software: A tool designed to streamline operations and improve communication within landscaping businesses.
3. “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Viktor Frank
4. “Setting the Table” by Danny Meyer

👍 If you liked this episode, please rate and review us on your favourite podcast platform, and be sure to hit the subscribe button! 🔔

Episode Transcript

Robert
00:00

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the I am landscape Growth podcast, where entrepreneurs help entrepreneurs grow faster, better, and stronger in the green industry, from leadership to sales to recruiting and operational excellence. We cover the topics holding entrepreneurs back and share how to get past those bottlenecks with the best in the industry. I’m your host, Rob Murray, co founder and CEO of Intrigue, a digital marketing company focused on helping landscape companies grow. So sit back and enjoy the show. All right, sweet. Welcome back to another episode of the I am Landscape Growth podcast. Today, like most days, but today a little bit more. A really special guest, Ed Hansen on the show. Ed, thank you so much for doing this.

Ed
00:42
Oh, this is exciting. I’m pumped.

Robert
00:44
Ed has had a pretty amazing career in the green industry. Founder, entrepreneur of landscape businesses, massive involvement in associations. Currently vice president of Landscape Ontario, also a tech chair for those who don’t know, facilitating and leading a group of entrepreneurs to help them grow their own businesses and with the experience you have. Amazing. And then also co founder of Ext, a software company, which we’ll dig into to give the audience a little understanding of how that might help. So, yeah, I really appreciate you doing this, man. This would be a good conversation.

Ed
01:25
Thanks, Rob. I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

Robert
01:28
All right, so, for the sake of the audience, can you give us a Cole’s notes one to three minute crash course on Ed Hansen over the last 20 years and how you ended up a co founder of EXT and a tech chair.

Ed
01:42
Okay. Wow. Okay. Let’s go as fast as I can. How about that? Do you know what? I’ve always had a passion for the industry and the profession. I love creating outdoor spaces. I love making people happy. And then the other flip to that is I combine that with the fact that I might have thought I was a good player in some sports, but I think I’m an even better coach and better at helping people see maybe what they’re not necessarily that I know what their gaps are, but then help them to kind of see what their gaps are. So if it’s the last 20 years, so much has happened in the industry. So much has happened in the world.

Ed
02:22
Like, to think about it, 20 years ago, weren’t driving social media, weren’t driving Internet the same way, weren’t marketing the same way. We were knocking on doors instead of opening up, dropping seeds on the Internet. So, way different world back then to what it is now. But I think it’s like, what are you going to be when you grow up? Still haven’t figured it out. And I’ve been doing this for a long time. So I feel that you just never stop. You never stop learning. You never stop growing. You’re always evolving. You’re always changing. I feel I’m a good person with certain things. I’ve had some massive successes in business. I’ve had some huge failures in business. I’ve seen some big successes. I’ve seen some big failures. I’ve been industry peer groups.

Ed
03:07
I’ve been in non industry peer groups, which is kind of why I led to tech. And I think that every piece of that is a tool in your tool belt that helps you get better at your trade and your profession. And sometimes we think we get. We sort of talked a little bit before Rob about what sometimes are the biggest problems and biggest things. Sometimes we’re just too far in our own head. We’re too worried about certain things.

Robert
03:34
Cool. So we’re going to draw on that in a minute. So then, growing Hanson Lawn and gardens from nothing to something, can you give the audience a bit of an understanding of the business that you grew there and kind of where you’re at today with it?

Ed
03:50
Sure. So I started Hanson Lawn and Gardens, in truth, way back when I was a young guy. And when I started it, I can honestly say never had the vision of still being here 30 plus years later. The thought was that at the time, I was working for another landscape company. I enjoyed it. I thought it was great. However, back then, it wasn’t a profession, it wasn’t an industry. It was something that you just did as a summer job. And there wasn’t really formality. I mean, there was some formation to it, but the world wouldn’t have perceived you as being a real career. Oh. So what are you going to do when you decide to actually not do that anymore? Right.

Robert
04:31
When are you getting a real job?

Ed
04:33
Yeah, when are you getting a real job? Actually, I joke, I tell the college students that I teach that. I say that back when I started, if you were smart, you went to university. If you were dumb, you went to college, and if you were even further down that chain, you got in the trades. And that’s what people’s perception was, which I don’t think is true, obviously, but it was a societal norm back then. So anyway, in the beginning, just small jobs did things. Nothing crazy. And then, as I appreciated what I was doing more, I realized how much more I had to respect the people I was working for, improve the quality of what I was doing in terms.

Robert
05:16
Of your own craft and the way that you ran your own self.

Ed
05:20
Yeah, sure, you do things and you’re just doing them, but there’s a difference between just doing them and doing them at the next level. And I think you always need something. What’s a differentiator between you and somebody else? And if it’s that you’re constantly evolving and constantly getting better and you are better than them, then it’s not hard, right? You just kind of keep running your own way to do it. And also, too, it’s funny because you’ll do, just pick a patio as an example or even, you know what? Something as simple in the world’s eyes as cutting grass. And you go and cut grass and you can go and look at a company cut grass and they just hammer through it. And as they say, the mow and blow and you know what, it looks okay, right?

Ed
06:04
But then you get other companies and you look at, whoa, that looks fantastic. So you got to realize that it is your craft and you are trying to get better. So a company who’s a couple of years in, maybe they’re not as good, but a company who’s ten years and they’ve evolved their craft well, you want to try to get there. That’s always been something that I sort of strive for. But I also will admit that I kind of got to a certain point in the business where I had to evolve myself and I needed help. I used to look at other people and think I’m better than them. But really, were you? Am I? You didn’t want to ask them maybe because you didn’t want to give up something.

Ed
06:46
But I go back tony Di Giovanni, the former executive director of landscape Ontario. He had a meeting one time, ten people in the room, and everybody’s afraid to give out a secret. And he says, okay, well, look at it this way. If you each give up one secret of your company, you’re going to get nine secrets here that you’re going to leave with. But you only gave up one. And that’s when I realized that, okay, I got to start talking to other people, find out what they’re doing. It doesn’t mean they’re better than you. It’s no different than a pro hockey team watching another pro hockey team. They don’t sure they’re going to say, okay, yeah, they run a one, three one, okay, great, or something or whatever.

Robert
07:24
Execution is still a big part of it, right?

Ed
07:28
You still got to master your own craft and get good at it.

Robert
07:31
So where is Hanson Lawn and Gardens today as the president that you’re in the organization. What’s the core know size of the business ish. So people have an idea of the perspective that you’re bringing to the conversation.

Ed
07:41
Yeah. So Hanson Lawn and Gardens today. So I’m the founder of Hanson Lawn and Gardens. I am still the current president. And Hanson Lawn and Gardens is a design build, maintain company. They also do snow removal in the wintertime. And we employ anywhere from 30 to 40 people throughout the year. That’s kind of a standard operational. And I mean, for those that are in the industry, you can figure out dollars and cents from there. I mean, it’s pretty straightforward, but very hard focused that the teams that do what they do it and they focus on it. So our teams that do projects or installations, that’s what they do. They focus on it in their offseason. They’re training, practicing, working towards bettering their craft, getting certified in different things, taking courses. They have educational budgets that help them get better estimators, review things.

Ed
08:37
How did we do on something? What made us better? What were some good jobs, what were some bad jobs? What made them good? What made them a. As a good friend of mine, Rob Dale, would know, everything is feedback is a breakfast of champions, right? You got to take it. Then you’re in trouble if somebody’s going to give you or offer you information. And odly enough, I hate to admit to this, but I do see people make that mistake. They just assume they know everything and then I don’t need to take a courser.

Robert
09:11
Feedback is the breakfast of champions.

Ed
09:13
That’s beautiful. Breakfast of champions. I can’t take. I think Rob would probably even admit that’s someone else’s line. Whatever.

Robert
09:20
It’s still good.

Ed
09:21
Oh, it’s a great line. And honestly, it is true. Or another one too, is lifting the. Like you’re saying something, but it’s not really true. But you got to lift that, get it out, give a clear shot of what you’re looking at.

Robert
09:33
How the heck do you run a 40 person operation as the president whilst having the time to start a software company and be a tech chair? Actually, maybe we will get to that question in a quick second. The theme of the podcast is, what’s the primary growth constraint for entrepreneurs in the green industry? And so we had a quick chat before we started and I said, time out. We got to use this for the podcast. So from your perspective, what is the primary growth constraint for entrepreneurs in the green industry?

Ed
10:01
I think number one is people just get in their own head. I think you limit yourself by things and you say, oh, I can’t do that. Or you start thinking that you want to be a million dollar company, as opposed to thinking you want to be a five or a ten or a $20 million company. And I think also, too, it’s no different than you plan a landscape. Do you run conduit for electrical later or do you not? Well, if you want to grow, you’re going to have to think of those things and how we’re going to grow and how we’re going to do that. I’m too small. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to get busy. Well, imagine you just listed off the things I do, but I do them.

Ed
10:36
So it means I must have done something along the way to figure out how to manage my time and also how to get myself to a point where I don’t have to be involved in certain things. If I take Hanson as an example, the leadership team at Hanson is off the chart. They do not need me in any way, shape or form to provide a daily service that is above and beyond everywhere else. But let them do their jobs because they’re incredibly good at.

Robert
11:03
Okay, well, then getting to that spot, because that’s the dream, right? Like building an Organization. There’s this really cool quote we use from Michael Gerber, the Emeth revisited. A lot of people have a job. They don’t own a company, and it’s the worst job in the world because you work for a lunatic yourself. And so where was it in your career building this Organization? Did you get stuck in your own head? And how did you get through? How did you push through?

Ed
11:40
That’s a great question. And the reality is, just to be super Upfront, I was a shitty leader at one point, excuse my language.

Robert
11:49
No, you’re good, budy.

Ed
11:51
I was brutal. And why? Because I thought I was the best. I thought I was better than everybody else. And I thought that I needed to check up on everybody constantly. Like, did you call that person? What about this? How about that? And then you realize, oh my God, what am I doing? And you’re working a 16 hours day, but on stuff that you really should be putting in maybe one or 2 hours on.

Robert
12:15
So first of all, you look back, it’s easy, right? Like hindsight is 2020, but you’re in the middle of it. You’re doing it, you think you’re great, you’re rocking it. Obviously doing something right. What made you step back and say.

Ed
12:29
This is stupid, this is going to be kind of a funny story, but I’ll call it a TSN turning point. Yeah, we did a really great job one year, and I thought were, like, at the peak of our performance. And when the dust settled and I looked at the numbers, it was kind of embarrassing. Like, we actually lost money that year. And I was like, what? How do we lose money? We were like, the best team. It’s like, imagine you win the Super bowl and you crush the other team, but you actually lost all of your season ticket holders, and you didn’t make any money. So I realized there was a problem, and I said, okay, I got to get out of my own head. I need somebody to look at this from an outside perspective.

Ed
13:15
And at the time, I hired a consultant who was not a landscape consultant or anything like that. And embarrassingly, we spent about a half a day, and I kicked him out because all he was doing was critiquing me. And this is a problem, and have you noticed this and why this is bad and this is bad? And then I realized, anyway, I kicked him out. I said, oh, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and all that sort of stuff. Anyway, took me about a week or so to realize he’s kind of right, and I just wasn’t willing to listen to it.

Ed
13:48
And I also needed to hear it from my team at the time for them to be honest with me and say, hey, we are a great company, but this isn’t good, and this isn’t good, and that’s not great, and this isn’t bad. Actually, I was at a session yesterday with a lady named Millipur Ertebile, and she’s a design engineer, and it’s about how do you design processes in your own company? And how it’s called deeper clarity was the talk. And it made me go back in time to, like, if you ask a farmer in 1900 what they wanted to be faster, they would tell you, of course, as Henry Ford, they would say, I need more horses. But if you ask Henry Ford, he would say, no, they need a tractor, because they didn’t even know the tractor existed.

Ed
14:39
So I kind of feel like that was the thing for me. And then I just evolved myself to a non stop quest for learning. Like, I am not going to stop. I’m going to keep developing, figuring out ways. One was processes. They were garbage. They were horrible.

Robert
14:55
Before we get into processes, and I don’t want to leave that. We’re going to come right back to it. But one of the things you said there, which was pretty powerful, was that you needed to hear it from your team, and they needed to be honest with you. Now, from my experience working with entrepreneurs, even myself in my own journey as a leader, especially as being like a directorial leader, that doesn’t necessarily foster an environment for them to be open and honest. Honest. So what did you do to give them the environment to feel like they could trust you in being honest in that feedback? So if someone’s listening to this and they’re like, man, maybe I do need to hear from my team. Here’s something that they can go do.

Ed
15:40
So you got to get out of your own headspace. And here’s the thing, you can’t let them tell you directly because they won’t. They’ll tell you what they think you want to hear. So the first few times you do it, you need a third party to tell you. And I say that by having somebody, maybe a little bit from the outside, come in and talk to your team, hey, what’s good about working here? What’s bad about working here? What’s something you really like? Have you ever been given a mentor? Do you know what it’s like to do this? And you just kind of go through a bunch of the questions and when you’re ready to take it? Rob, you went through the tech experience too, right? We talked about that before.

Ed
16:26
So, you know, when you do an issue process for an example, and you’re sitting in the hot seat in a room with twelve ceos who are coming at you with, did you think about this? And why not this and why not that? The reality becomes, I didn’t think of that. I didn’t. But I don’t want to be embarrassed because I’m supposed to be the leader and have all the answers, and that’s not it. You’re a leader not because of that. You’re a leader because you’re willing to make decisions, you’re willing to listen to people, and you’re willing to give people an environment that they can grow in and give them what they need to grow. So that’s when I realized things like, okay, we’re not the best trained team, so let’s do it. Let’s go get trained, everybody.

Ed
17:08
Instead of saying that you’re good at what you do, you show up. Sorry for any lawyers who might be listening to this?

Robert
17:15
No, you’re good, buddy.

Ed
17:16
You’re good. If you’re a lawyer. Just because you passed the bar exam doesn’t mean you’re good, right? Means you passed the bar exam. Good for you. You did well in a course. But if I’m seeking out the best corporate lawyer. I’m going for the best corporate lawyer. Why? Okay, well, they have a shingle and they hang it up and they’re good, but they’ve had success in different things. You’re constantly seeing in the community, you’re constantly seeing them be next level. They’re game changers. So that the only way to do it was to start from scratch. It took a long time. And also too, had to start with the fact that some people didn’t fit the culture that was going to start happening.

Ed
17:54
And unfortunately, just because they might be good at their job, they might also be cancerous to the environment and to the organization. So had to make a conscious decision that were going to build a company that was 100% based on being a destination company. You want to work in the industry, you want to come and work here, that’s it. Nice and simple. Because they have a lot of choice, right?

Robert
18:18
You can.

Ed
18:19
Massive choice and you can make more money no matter what in the industry. I could say, yeah, I’ve been working here for a long time. Okay, well, guess what? I’m in desperation for a guy. I’m going to hire him and I’m going to hire him for a snow shift at noon and he’s going to be working at seven. He’s never going to have been trained. He’s not going to know what he’s doing. Think of it. If you were that person, you’re showing up in a dark, it’s night, you’re showing up somewhere, you don’t even know what you’re doing. And you’re. Hi, I’m Ed and I’m here to shovel or something for not. It’s not good. So we slowed things down to speed them up.

Robert
19:01
Awesome.

Ed
19:02
Yeah. It was the only way to do it. And part of that was instead of like every year, you have a goal for the company. What’s most people’s goal? I’m going to earn 30% margin, I’m going to do this, we’re going top line revenue, blah, blah. Those are all great things, don’t get me wrong. But you will never reach those. If you don’t have a good team, you will never reach that. If your team isn’t cohesive, cares about their culture, their core values, they’re ripping them to the point where they’re living them when they go home at night. And what your team’s core values are would be your own choice. That’s obviously. Yeah, for sure, slightly different, but I think that if you’re not doing that and you’re not focusing on that. But how long does that take?

Ed
19:45
As long as you’re willing to commit to it and not be well, okay. They’re really good at what they do, but they don’t respect anybody here at work, so, yeah, we’ll keep them. No, they got to go. Right.

Robert
19:58
So there was two things you said there. One was slow down to speed up and that your processes were crap and they had to fix them. Were they tied together? That idea of slowing down to speed up, like this idea of processes, training, core value, how do you start that? Let’s just assume for a moment I’m a million and a half dollar landscape company. I’ve experienced growth. I have a culture that I don’t necessarily like. I want to slow down, I want to speed up. I want to make our processes better. I want to train. And being on the right people, what’s something I can start doing to make that happen?

Ed
20:32
Number one is figure out who you really are and what you really want to do and by who you really are. Let’s say you’re a profit driven. That’s it. You don’t care about culture. You don’t care about what clients you’re working for. You don’t care about any of that, then that’s cool. There are companies out there. Own it and do it. That’s it. And be honest and say, look, we’re going to do a walkway cheaper than anybody else because we’re just going to slam it in for you and it’s going to look great and you’re going to be happy. But we’re not into sales and we’re not going to walk you through what kind of brick, because we only put in this kind of brick. And that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with that. People go to McDonald’s and eat.

Ed
21:13
There’s nothing wrong with McDonald’s for sure. What you like, right? So cool. Go there. But if you aren’t that person and you want to say when you get home at night. My grandfather told me when I started my company, this is like a funny moment, but he told me that he’s an old danish farmer. Just kind of give you some. Yeah, no, that’s cool. That says a lot, like hardcore. But him was, every time you do a job, imagine that your grandmother is going to inspect it. So I know that might not mean much to maybe some younger people now, but to my generation, that was like, because your grandmother had no filter. She would tell you it was wrong. You were doing it incorrectly. There’s no way that somebody would be happy with that.

Robert
21:58
She’s ashamed of you for doing it.

Ed
22:00
Like that because her accountability was to the point where when she passes and you have to carry on her legacy, then you’re not doing a good job. So it’s no different than indigenous culture. Seven generations forward, seven generations back. So if I’m looking at that in my grand scheme of my business and I’m not here, and somebody sees a job that we did 20 years ago, what do I want them to say? I want them to say, wow, that job is still there. It looks fantastic. And the people that did it were so nice and that to me in essence, I had to figure out who I really was and what I wanted to do. And so for those of you who are out there and know what a B Corp is, that’s kind of a bit of my mentality in a way.

Ed
22:45
It doesn’t mean. Yeah, got it, man. I hear you.

Robert
22:49
Did you know we’re a B Corp?

Ed
22:51
Oh, absolutely. We actually were thinking about becoming certified as a B Corp, actually. Right. And we didn’t. But not because it wasn’t my driving force.

Robert
23:03
Well, no, the governance to make it happen is.

Ed
23:06
So that’s. We looked into it but then we said, okay, well, we’re going to slow down on that. But I still love the philosophy.

Robert
23:14
Well, the guiding principles, right?

Ed
23:15
Yeah, the guiding principles are fantastic. And something that also hits really hard for me is that in that element it becomes. So. I joke, but I am a people first leader. I’ve learned that over the years. But people think that a people first leader means that you let people lead and you let this, you let that. I look at that whole scenario as being this. You set what you. You want to do. If you tell me you’re coming in at 07:00, great. If you’re in at 730 though, that’s not a people first because you just broke the chain. You broke the fact that you told me you were going to be in at seven and you showed up at 730, well, why?

Ed
23:57
This can happen once or twice, but you’re holding yourself to a standard and if you can’t be accountable for it, that goes back into the Simon Sinek working with the Navy SeALs. What box do you want to be in? You want to be high trust, high quality? Of course we all want that box. But yet would I rather low trust, high quality or high trust, low quality. And the answer is that everybody wants high trust. So you want your team around you to be at high trust. Yeah.

Robert
24:28
Well, it’s crazy how simple it is. If you do what you say you’re going to do, when you say you’re going to do it builds trust, and if you don’t, it kills it.

Ed
24:36
Yeah. A company here, years ago, he actually, Green, can’t remember now the name of it, but the owner used to be Bruce Morton. And Bruce, one of the things on his company’s thing was, we do what we say we’re going to do. And I remember reading this, and this wasn’t like an invogue thing when this happened. This was like, ten or 15 years ago. Wow, what a simple, so simple. And honestly, that’s exactly what they did. Like, at the peak of that company, they were doing exactly what they said. They were working with industry people, working with homeowners. They had great mix of people. And that, to me, was really, if you can work and do work for other people in your industry that you’re the best at.

Ed
25:30
So, like, say, for an example, people hire somebody who’s really good at lighting, or they hire somebody who’s really good within their own project. Some people who do big backyards, like, they’ll hire a pool company. Well, they don’t just hire any pool company. They hire the best pool company so that the client has the best experience.

Robert
25:49
So then you slow down, you speed up, and the biggest thing to slow down is figure out, okay, who are you actually? Like, who do you actually want to be from an authentic perspective? And then what do you actually want to do? I find a lot of times, entrepreneurs, leaders, have a hard time with visioning. What does the future look like? Where do I want to go with this whole thing? Do you have a tip for someone trying to figure that out, like, how to think about it?

Ed
26:15
Yeah. And actually, for me, it always comes like I’m a big sports analysis.

Robert
26:20
Sure, that’s cool. There’s a lot of parallels, right?

Ed
26:23
Yeah. And so for me, I played some sports at pretty high level, but there was always better players on the team. And I remember one time talking to somebody in particular, and he was telling me how he sees something, and I was listening, and I was like, what? I don’t see it at that speed. I see it at this speed going 100 miles an hour, but he was seeing it at, like, 10 miles an hour. And because he’s seeing it at 10 miles an hour, he could see where the ball was going. He could see where players were going. All of the greats will tell you that. Gretzky, all them, he passes where people are going.

Robert
27:02
Where the puck is. Go where the puck is going to be.

Ed
27:03
Yeah. Right. So, I mean, those are some seriously amazing commentaries, but for me, that’s what it was. I remember it was sort of one winter where were doing, and I’ll be honest, were doing okay work. It was good, but not great. And then I was looking at other people’s work and I was, huh, that’s better than. And then. So I pulled myself out of what were doing and started to watch what they were doing and then realized that they weren’t doing it. It’s a classic story I tell people. My son went to school in Cleveland, Ohio, and I was there for one of his games. And I was at a hotel, and the hotel was being cleared by a snow removal company, and they were doing like an unreal job. Phenomenal.

Ed
27:55
And I asked one of the operators, I said, hey, is the owner anywhere around? And he goes, oh, yeah, he’s over in the shopping mall over there in the loader. Just go see. Anyway, I went over and I said, your team is fantastic. It’s incredible what you’re doing and so forth. He goes, yeah, you know what? I shifted my mindset. I said, okay, tell me. He said, yeah, I’m not doing the work anymore. I’m making it so that the people who go to that hotel don’t have to ever get stuck, don’t have to ever be impeded by the snow removal. It’s always free and clear. People coming in and coming out.

Ed
28:28
It’s never a problem because now if the hotel doesn’t get booked because of their snow removal, they’re never going to hire me back because I’m not making it a better experience for their guests. So I look at the shopping mall the same way I want to make it so that it’s close to Christmas. I want people coming in and coming out and shopping and no problems, because if the mall loses money, then they don’t want to pay me for the top level service. And honestly, Mike, moment for me, mike drop. Boom. I was like, okay. I was looking at it like, I hate snow and I hate this and I hate that we have to do this. And now I took him. I get to do it.

Robert
29:06
Oh, cool. I have the opportunity, too.

Ed
29:08
Instead of, I have to do this, I get to do this. And then you get these other moments. We had a job one time where we made a scaled backyard for somebody so they could get down to their lower garden. It was a set of stairs with a railing. Simple job, nothing crazy. However, this gentleman told me shortly after, he said, honestly, this was the greatest thing you could have ever given my family. I said, why? He goes, because my wife can now get down there. She couldn’t get down there before, and now she can get down there into the garden and feel that space, like, again. Forget the big backyard, forget the pool, forget this. You just change someone’s life because of what you did. But instead of just keeping that for yourself, go tell your team that.

Ed
29:57
Make sure the team knows that’s what you’re doing. Make sure that you’re not just there. You didn’t make enough profit on this job. You didn’t do this on this job. Well, all those things factor, but they don’t factor unless there’s meaning to it.

Robert
30:11
Yeah, that’s cool. And they’re all results, too, right? That’s not going to necessarily drive them to give a shit about what they’re doing when they’re out there.

Ed
30:17
Most people focus on KPIs that are accounting KPIs. And that was one thing our goals changed from, like, last two years ago. Our goals were living the core value, not profit, not anything else. Living the core values. It was the goal of the company, the whole goal. And you know what? When people wouldn’t, leadership group would jump in and say, okay, whoa, that’s not living one of the core values, and here’s why. So you’re going to have to change for it. So instead of giving out rewards like you did the most backyards or the host biggest profit of the year, it was. Here’s the person who exemplified this core value the most. That was the award system and the style. Yeah. A huge culture change, for sure. And it just takes time, and that’s slowing it down so that you can.

Ed
31:07
And maybe you’re doing a little bit less top line revenue. Right. And that’s okay. People think if you’re a $10 million company, that’s the pinnacle. That’s great. But why, if you’re at 10 million making 100,000, why wouldn’t you want to be at five making 500,000? A million?

Robert
31:24
Yeah.

Ed
31:26
There’s no comparison. And a lot of companies do, unfortunately, just run a gun at top line. Like, that’s what they’re looking at.

Robert
31:36
I think a lot of times, two people work in this arbitrary one year increment. Right. It’s like the year goal. It’s all annualized. But in reality, a year of business is an arbitrary cycle.

Ed
31:50
I coached a team one year. I was involved with coaching a team one year. Since it wasn’t me in charge. And one of the parents had a big issue about the team and they weren’t winning enough. And by the way, the kids were eight at the time. Right.

Robert
32:09
Very serious hockey.

Ed
32:10
Yeah, I was super serious. Here’s the funny part, though. The whole point of this was I finally decided. I said, what do you deem to be success here, just out of curiosity? Oh, we need to win more games and the kids need to this and the kids need that. I said, okay. So the question came back to me from this person who was fairly, I don’t know what the right term is, but fired up. Pretty fired up. Yeah. What do you deem to be success then? What, do you just want them to lose? I said, no, my definition of success will be that if every single one of these kids comes back and plays hockey next year. And the longest pause from this dude, because he was looking at me like, I like that, but I don’t want to like it.

Ed
32:55
And the point is that when you lose, it’s not about losing. It’s about gaining tools to figure out what you need to get those tools to win. And go back to a hockey reference, my son was a goalie. The coach of that team is the first year that he played at the top level. And the coach pulled the two goalie parents aside and he said, okay, I’m telling you both right now, we’re teaching the D-A-D to d pass. They’re going to screw it up and they’re going to leave your goalie out to dry. And they’re going to leave both your kids out to dry. Don’t scream and yell at the boys. Don’t get mad, but just know that if they don’t do that now, they’re never going to learn it quick enough. And you know what he told us?

Robert
33:39
Expectation.

Ed
33:39
Let everybody know. The expectation was set of what’s out there. And you know what? I think it made the boys better in net because they were also now trying to help their team learn a skill. While they’re learning that skill, they’re going to back them up. It’s no different than two. Think of it. I hear another beautiful dude.

Robert
33:56
That’s so cool.

Ed
33:57
Well, think of it, too. Another one that we all think. What’s another problem? We all focus on the fact in our industry that nobody ever gets a holiday and they work too hard. Right? Okay, but how about this? How about if you really need to go on a holiday this week, I got you. You go on your holiday. And if you getting better when you come back means that I’m going to get better. Then go. But don’t just go on your holiday and come back and work less. You need to go on your holiday. Do it. Let the people who help you go on that. And I’m talking for companies that are like five to ten people and they’re struggling with, like, I can’t take a week off or a day off.

Ed
34:39
Well, you have to think of it like you’re supporting somebody to go and do that, and then you support them to go do that. So it’s no different than a training seminar. Oh, I can’t take a leadership class. I can’t take of this. Okay, but why, again, if you’re not slowing down to figure it out? So no different than watching game I. And I’ll use NFL for this instead of hockey. Think they practice for six days to play one.

Robert
35:05
Right. When do you ever practice in organizational settings?

Ed
35:09
Right.

Robert
35:09
It’s so rare.

Ed
35:11
Well, imagine if your leadership team tells you at work that you can’t have a meeting in the morning because, oh, I can’t. The crew’s got to get out there. They got to get working. Then you’re in trouble. That’s a first sign of trouble right there. I’m sure you’ve heard the story of the two guys with the axe. They’re both cutting down trees all day. One guy goes home or leaves for an hour and cuts more wood than the other guy. And the other, how do you do that? He goes, well, I go home and sharpen my axe. Yeah, it’s awesome, right? Anyway.

Robert
35:41
No, it’s beautiful, man. And slow down to speed up, I think is a pretty common theme in everything that you mentioned there. Understand yourself. Build the culture that you want. Figure out where you want to go. Sharpen your axe. I mean, there’s a lot of gems in that, and I appreciate the tactical ideas that you’re kind of helping these folks at least think about or consider doing on their own, because they’re not crazy. Have a third party person come in and talk to your team. Take a day to reflect where you want to do and who you want to be. This is not crazy things. It just takes a little bit of discipline to execute. So jumping to another piece, then, ext. What the heck is this? And how did you go from green hands dirty building teams to software?

Robert
36:21
What are you doing, Ed? What did you do?

Ed
36:25
So, first of all, about 20 years ago is when I first started that component. So I recognized that all the processes that we had could be not just repeatable. But they could be understood better if they were laid out properly. So we had everything from old school, everything used to say, ask Ed. And that was horrible because I had to store all of this up here to explain to a crew before they went to something. It was too much. Right. This was before any software was available. This is before. So I had nothing out there to look at and go, hey, yeah, let’s get. So Nutshell has created our own software. It was actually originally called Hlod Hanson landscape online database.

Robert
37:15
Very good branding.

Ed
37:17
Yeah, well, it was just for us, really, in the beginning, because were just trying to figure out a way to make it better for us. Right? And then as time went on, we kept adding things and different things came on and we paused sometimes for a couple of years and just keep running it the way it was while we worked on other things. And then kept adding and kept adding. And then along came the concept. Other people kept asking me, hey, you guys run this? Any chance I could do this, too? Sure. And then you did. You start getting people on it. And then we made a game changing component that actually, when my son, who’s a software engineer, he was on, what do you call it, I guess co op.

Ed
38:03
And during his co op time, he developed this component to our software, and it was all about routing and so forth. And my son had worked for Hanson before, so we knew how crews work. He knew the mentality and all that sort of stuff. And his biggest thought at the time, know, got to make it easy enough that the crews understand it, not just the office people. Very cool. Okay, great. Anyway, this comes in ads, revolutionizes, takes our company from having four or five people in the office fielding phone calls and issues from clients to now all of a sudden it’s done, because they’re getting alerted. They know when things are happening. Clients, the guys know exactly where they’re going. There’s a map, makes life easy, right?

Ed
38:47
And then fast forward to, I guess we had nine versions of it up until a certain point. And then right now we’re on version ten. But on version ten, we decided to go a little bit different. And recognizing that all I would hear from clients and people in the industry was that I have this software that runs my company. And then the but was I use 5% of it, I don’t really understand how it works. There’s a lot of data there that I really don’t use or need. And so we said, okay, let’s maybe make a change. Luckily, I met somebody actually through tech, and his name is Tom Murphy and Tom is an incredibly skilled software gentleman who used to form a lot of the apps that everybody would have used back in the BlackBerry days.

Ed
39:44
So understands usability, understands the end user’s ability to log on and look at something and how they access things. That’s anything from like BlackBerry’s Facebook app to how did that. You got to log on and make it easy. You got to hit the button.

Robert
40:00
User experience, right?

Ed
40:02
User experience, absolutely. So that’s what we did. We changed the whole thing around, reskinned it, called it ext Tech, which is we’re an extension of your company through technology. Cool. And the gentleman that did the branding for it though, it’s also Ed and Tom and we met in tech. Kind of funny, but yeah, it’s like a double plug. Great.

Robert
40:26
Tech is also.

Ed
40:32
Really, I’m going to say, developing and grinding like crazy. We have a client board of directors now with some fantastic companies, powerhouse companies in Ontario on it. And we have a ton of companies committed, growing every day, doing demos every day, changing the lives of people who use it.

Robert
40:53
For the people that are listening, what problems would they be experiencing now that would make them consider ext.

Ed
41:04
Great question. That’s the one that gets asked quite often. I think the three major components are this. Number one, the communication between your field staff. So the triangle of your field staff to your office to the customer or client to customer. And that triangle, the reality is that it’s always been dysfunctional. So for an example, customer calls, hey, your guys were here, but they didn’t actually do anything. Well, now the office has to call the person or get them on the phone. Hey, this person on this street says that you didn’t come by. No. What are they talking about? I was there, but their car was in the way, that sort of thing. Well, a, you just wasted valuable time amongst your team.

Robert
41:50
Oh, massive, bad.

Ed
41:51
Also have to wait for them to do it. Now the app on your phone, let’s say you’re doing snow removal. It’s the easiest one to describe. You get there and there’s a car in the way. Take a picture, put it on your screen, send it to the client. Hey, were here at 935 and the car was in the way. So we’ll be back. Great. Client knows. There’s an email also there’s a history of it. You can see this and then even that. The communication between teams. I’m on a route doing, even in the summertime, doing a garden list and I have this route and I’m going and working away and then the other team is finished. Well, where do you go? You can open up a map. It shows you which ones were done, which ones weren’t.

Ed
42:34
So I don’t have to call the office or my supervisor and say, hey, where do you want me to go now? Or wait for them? And you have crews sitting. You think about it. You got ten people sitting for 15 minutes. Doesn’t take long to figure out all the math.

Robert
42:47
No, it’s expensive.

Ed
42:49
That’s a huge vampire. Yeah. The app pays for itself. The whole program pays for itself. And then the other one is the understanding from the client. They can go on and they can basically authorize work. You send them a job or an estimate for something, they can authorize it. It gets activated.

Robert
43:07
So the problem they’d be experiencing is the quotes are taking forever to get signed back. They’re not getting back to them. They can’t see if things have been viewed.

Ed
43:15
Someone needs to enter it in the system.

Robert
43:17
Right.

Ed
43:18
Gone. Because now you’ve sent them the quote. They have it. They say, approved job. It goes back. Not only does it approve the job, but it creates the active work order for it. So now it’s in the schedule. You don’t even need to change it. And then the other part is just, you’re mic dropping things within it. I think anybody who we’ve shown it to, within about ten minutes, they realize how different it is than the other products that are out there and the other products that are out there. They’re good. And they’ve performed their duty for other companies and made things busy. And like me, I like the Sherwood 50 40 back in the day, but now I’d rather a better stick.

Robert
44:04
Yes. Something composite. Okay, cool. That’s obviously someone should check it out if they want to check it out. Ext tech.

Ed
44:14
Yes. And by the way, tech is like ca.

Robert
44:18
Yeah.

Ed
44:19
Even though some of the old big established places like Royal Bank, LinkedIn, they don’t recognize it. They want you to put a.com or a ca. But anyway, it is.

Robert
44:30
That’s old school. Yeah. So ext tech, if you want to check it out, last one before we go. Author, resource speaker, consultant, someone that’s impacted your life that you just think that people should check out.

Ed
44:46
Oh, my God. That’s like a mountain question for me.

Robert
44:50
But what’s one that pops up? One or two?

Ed
44:56
I probably read man’s search for meaning. Viktor Frankl once a year, just because I need to reset my values in life and need to reset reality. If you can read that, it’s not a big read for anybody who hasn’t read it. If you haven’t read it, I’m shocked because it’s one of those books that it’s not a leadership book, but to think that he logs his time through a concentration camp and how he kept his brain in line to going crazy. And honestly, it’s epic. So anyway, got to read that every once in a while just to reset yourself and realize that, hey, how bad you think you have?

Robert
45:37
It’s okay.

Ed
45:38
Yeah, you can’t. And then other people resources. I have some friends that I have met that are part of my ethics council, and I joke that I sometimes have a dilemma or a problem and I reach out to them. And you need to have that support group around you. And whether it’s through tech or through something else.

Robert
46:01
What the heck is an ethics council? Ed, you can’t just say that term like, people know what you’re talking about. What do you mean?

Ed
46:06
I have four people in my life that when something happens, that is a challenge or a dilemma, I know that they’re going to tell me the truth, not what I want to hear. And that to me is a friend. That’s not like people who just, oh, hey, I hate where I work and the people are so bad. And then. Really? But weren’t you late five times last week? That’s a friend, right?

Robert
46:32
Aren’t you the leader?

Ed
46:34
Just quit, man. They don’t know the value of you. Really? Well, I don’t know. You took two weeks off to do nothing and you told everybody that you need those people in your life. Cool.

Robert
46:47
That’s beautiful.

Ed
46:47
I have a couple of them, and without them, I couldn’t survive because they are like, I learned that don’t try to do it by yourself. Well, it’s awesome.

Robert
47:01
If you think about building something, you need scaffolding. It sounds like ethics council is kind of like the scaffolding. It helps you grow.

Ed
47:08
Yeah, that’s a great way to look at it. I mean, don’t get me wrong. Some of them are, some pretty. In my case, actually, in my case, two of them in particular are very people, first oriented leadership styles similar to mine. But they hold me hard, accountable, like, yeah, I think you should look at it from this lens, that sort of thing. And then two of them are more like David Goggins style with the, like, you’re a loser. What’s wrong with you? Why would you do it that way? Hard. And you know. Know who’s going to carry the. Yeah. And you know what, though? But you need those, like, that’s cool. You need somebody who’s going know, drive you. But anyway, those. And then Patrick Lencioni might be one, too.

Ed
47:59
I think just because he’s open to admitting that he took things from Michael Gerber and from Jim Collins and doesn’t pretend.

Robert
48:11
Really well for people like his parables, the way he writes is different.

Ed
48:15
Yeah. And I think that I kind of feel like there’s that grouping of leadership books that we all kind of, like, robotically, the seven habits, highly effective people, and power, positive thinking. And you need to read all are those are found.

Robert
48:30
How to win friends and influence people.

Ed
48:33
There you go. Yeah, those are some big books, but then you got to start. I got referred to setting the table by Danny Meyer this year. I think, actually, a friend of mine, David Coletto, he was the one who referred it to me. And I also have friends that I kind of bounce books off. Like, hey, what are you reading right now? And that book, game changer, too. For me, like, an absolute game changer, because it’s all about the customer experience, and if you don’t create that customer experience, they’re not coming back.

Robert
49:05
Customer wins every time.

Ed
49:07
Yeah. And actually, that links back to the thing from yesterday about deeper clarity, was that one point that came up is, like, sometimes you think, like, for an example, in this case, you sell something to a senior’s residence, and you assume that the senior’s residence is the end client, but they’re not. The end client is the senior, but then that’s not the end client, because now the kids who look after that senior, they’re the end client. So you got to go to who the end person is and make sure you’re not just surface look like the hero’s journey. Right? You take that, you got like, hey, I’ve got a great backyard, and you might really like it, but when your friends come over, do they really like it? And how does that make you. So it’s.

Ed
49:54
Yeah, there’s a whole bunch of elements to that, but I feel Danny Meyer summarizes that whole component, and he’s uber successful. Like, he’s shake shack and all the. I can’t remember the name of the restaurant in New York City there, that quadrant that he owns every restaurant in that quadrant. He’s like a couple billion dollar a year.

Robert
50:14
Setting the table.

Ed
50:16
Setting the table. Yeah. That’s a great book. Really good, solid book. Thank you for doing that. But, yeah, that part I could go on to. The mentorship part. That could be an episode on its own.

Robert
50:23
Well, then let’s do another one.

Ed
50:25
Anytime. Because I look at mentorship has got to be the most important part in my life. And even I’ve learned from people who I wouldn’t thought I would have learned from right off the bat. Just even like teammates or staff members who do something and you look, wow, look at how people respond to them. Why is that? But if you’re not willing to look at outside sources and other people, you’ll struggle on that. But anyway, yeah, mentorship is a huge.

Robert
50:56
Well, we’ll have to do another one. This is amazing. And we’re at a time, and so we should probably do more than one more. So again, thank you so much for doing this. Ed Hansen, you’re amazing.

Ed
51:05
Well, honestly, Rob, thank you. I appreciate it. And anybody that really knows me knows that I love to talk, so it’s all good. All right.

Robert
51:12
Thanks, everybody, for listening. The I am landscape growth podcast is brought to you by intrigue, where passionate marketing meets predictable results for entrepreneurs. Remember to like and subscribe the podcast so you don’t miss the next episode. And if you would like to be a guest on the podcast, please visit intriguemedia.com and click on podcasts.